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Forum:Should we use the Nitpicker's Guide concept?
So, I've seen this thing called the Nitpicker's Guide around the internet, and even on a couple pages of this wiki, and I was wondering if we should be making use of the concept in the errors sections. On the one hand, there are many errors listed that might come across as non-errors at first glance but are technically true (ex. poison and venom are different), and using the nitpicker's guide concept would ensure it remained in the list of errors while also satisfying people who want it removed. On the other hand, how do we decide what is nitpicky or not? Would we have to hold a vote if the use of Nitpicker's Guide was contested? I'm interested to hear your opinions on the matter. --StefCW (talk) 00:07, June 15, 2014 (UTC) I think we should, it's important to remember things Fear Not! (talk) 01:29, June 15, 2014 (UTC) :Heck no. It seems both of you are forgetting (or are unaware if y'all haven't already read the rules) some of our rules. :#This place is meant to be written like a professional encyclopedia. Primarily, what we have been trying to copy is Wikipedia's style. The Nitpicker's Guide tag is informal and out of place. Therefore, it is against the rules. :#The whole "there are many errors listed that might come across as non-errors at first glance but are technically true (ex. poison and venom are different), and using the nitpicker's guide concept would ensure it remained in the list of errors while also satisfying people who want it removed" is a non-issue. If something is an error, then list it as an error. It doesn't need the Nitpicker's Guide tag. As long as it is an error, then it has the right to be listed as an error. Who are these people who wish for a legitimate error to be removed, anyways? If they deem a legitimate error as unimportant, then that's their problem. The wiki should not compromise just because a few, uh, "less informed" individuals, can't accept facts. :#Third, this wiki is supposed to hold a neutral point of view. The Nitpicker's Guide tag will be added to anything a contributor deems insignificant. This is against the aforementioned policy. We are supposed to be neutral. But that tag will automatically align us with the "this thing is insignificant" side, and put us out of neutrality. :I do not support the Nitpicker's Guide tag. It already breaks two of our rules. —— [[User:WiKiAN|'Wi']][[User talk:WiKiAN|'Ki']] 04:57, June 15, 2014 (UTC) My main reason to support the Nitpicker's Guide is because I removed a listed error that differentiated between Poison and Venom, not realizing that the error was correct. When my mistake was revealed (btw, thanks for pointing that out, WiKiaN), I put Nitpicker's Guide to the error so that people with my ignorance didn't remove the error again. So I'll disagree with you that it relegates the error to "insignificance". On the contrary, it ensures that the uninformed realize that it is indeed supposed to be there, by preventing them from mistakenly removing it. As for it being added willy nilly to anything we want, you may recall that I suggested a vote to determine what was a justifiable use of the Nitpicker's Guide. Also, just for clarification, when is the issue considered resolved? Like, how long does the forum stay open until we can say, "Alright, we've had enough input on the issue. Let's close the book on this one."? I'm not familiar with forum rules.--StefCW (talk) 02:57, June 16, 2014 (UTC) :See, that's the thing. Your case. What you plan to implement is unnecessary. When someone like that comes along, then point out how it is a legitimate error. Enlighten them. That's it. No need for a tag. No need to break the formal writing style of the wiki. No need to put us out of the neutral side. Just handle it by explaining it to him/her. If they still don't agree and try to remove the error, then that is disruptive editing. That is an offense worthy of a short block. And they will be blocked accordingly. :From the looks of things, that tag is for convenience. Normally, this would be okay. But if "convenience" not only breaks the formal style of writing we are aiming for, but also puts us out of neutrality, then that is unacceptably lazy. Look at what I did in the "Primal Perry" talk page. Someone wanted an error removed because he/she believed it insignificant. However, I explained why it has to stay and so the situation was resolved. I didn't need some tag to do the work for me. If I, or anyone else for that matter, can do what the Nitpicker's Guide tag is supposed to, but without breaking two of our rules, then why should such a faulty system be implemented? We shouldn't break rules for convenience. :"So I'll disagree with you that it relegates the error to "insignificance". On the contrary, it ensures that the uninformed realize that it is indeed supposed to be there, by preventing them from mistakenly removing it". It does deem it as insignificant. What the tag does is satisfy those who also think it is insignificant. Mollycoddling them. It, again, removes us from neutrality. Again, if they are uninformed, then inform them and put back the error. :As for your question, give it a week or two. Longer if neither RRabbit or KinHikari have the time to deal with it. —— [[User:WiKiAN|'Wi']][[User talk:WiKiAN|'Ki']] 08:40, June 16, 2014 (UTC) ::I noticed that the error that the other user wanted removed was the same error that I'' tried to remove, and both of us suggested the same solution to the problem. Did that not give you any pause when you completely rejected the idea? Do you not think that maybe we have a point? ::The whole point of the '''Nitpicker's Guide' (or at least how I intended to use it) is to state, "This error may seem ridiculous, but rest assured it has the right to be here." ::By the way, I highly doubt the Nitpicker's Guide would compromise the Wiki's formality, mostly because I've never really seen much formality on this wiki beyond the use of proper English, categories and headings, and the refusal to tolerate speculation and fan-fictions. Everything else about this site suggests a more laid-back feel to me, which is probably a reflection of the show's nature. Nitpicker's Guide doesn't seem very out of place from where I sit, once the established style of the wiki is considered.--StefCW (talk) 15:10, June 16, 2014 (UTC) :::Also, did you seriously just dismiss the concept as "lazy"? I seem to recall that when I called you out on that uncivil-sounding post you left me that led to this forum, you said that you'd been too lazy to type a more civil post and that's why it had come across as rude. I know the talk pages have different standards, but still... :::Have some consistency, friend.--StefCW (talk) 15:22, June 16, 2014 (UTC) :::The difference is that one is harmless, and the other breaks two rules. Hence why it is unacceptably lazy. Free labor is free labor. It's alright to be lazy. But when your laziness happens to break rules, then that's just not right. —— [[User:WiKiAN|'Wi']][[User talk:WiKiAN|'Ki']] 16:02, June 16, 2014 (UTC) ::I rejected the both of you for the same reason: the wiki is supposed to be neutral and formal. I told him/her that and am now telling you the same thing. I stopped. I thought about it. And I came to the same conclusion each time: both of you are wrong. If two people are telling me killing innocent people is okay, then should I believe that they have a point? Are you telling me that just because something is popular, it is correct? (Hope you don't mind the analogy. I couldn't think of anything better at this time.) ::"This error may seem ridiculous, but rest assured it has the right to be here"? I can tell that to someone rather than adding a tag. Why do you insist on adding something like that, which breaks two of our rules, when one can simply leave a message instead? Is it that hard to talk to someone? ::This wiki is supposed to be formal. That is our established style. What you perceive to be our style is most likely wrong. Wikipedia does not use the Nitpicker's Guide. Neither do any professional or academic-level encyclopedias. Not even big sites like Wookiepedia. Something like that belongs on actual laidback sites like TV Tropes. I'm not saying we are professionals or trying to be academic. The show isn't something to be so serious about, after all. But this wiki, as stated in our MOS, is striving to compile a professional resource for Phineas and Ferb fans. The show is fun. This wiki is not supposed to be. It can be fun. But not at the cost of cutting its quality. —— [[User:WiKiAN|'Wi']][[User talk:WiKiAN|'Ki']] 16:02, June 16, 2014 (UTC) :::The Guide is not going to ruin the quality of the wiki. I didn't think it looked out of place at all when I first saw it. And even professional sources are not always stiff and formal. If the Guide doesn't completely destroy the style of the wiki (which I don't think it does), then you really don't have a reason to oppose it. It's not going to ruin the wiki's credibility, like you fear. (By the way, I do mind the analogy. I'm not a murderer, and I'm not trying to legalize murder.) :::Look, obviously we disagree on the issue. Neither of us has anything more to say about this, judging from the fact that all but one sentence on this entire page is just us repeating what we've said in our previous posts. Why don't we take a break from this pointless debate and see if anyone else has an opinion? As it stands, this forum is just our personal battleground. :::Before I sign off, I noticed that you removed the Nitpicker's Guide from the City of Love. Really bad form since we haven't even decided the issue yet. I'm not going around adding it to things until this forum closes, so why do you get to go around removing the ones that were already there for years? --StefCW (talk) 21:20, June 16, 2014 (UTC) ::::You seem to have come up with your own conclusions. I am not accusing you of being a murderer. That is why it was just an analogy. You can take a break if you'd like. But I'm an admin. I don't have the same luxuries. Besides, you aren't answering my question: why do we need the tag when I, or anyone else for that matter, can accomplish the same effect through the use of a simple message, without breaking any rules? ::::I removed it from the City of Love for the very same reason I removed yours: it is against the rules. As long as something is currently against the rules, it must be removed. I offered you this forum not because there was no consensus regarding the tag, but because as it currently stands, it is against the rules. This forum is an opportunity for you to bend those rules to allow such a thing to exist. —— [[User:WiKiAN|'Wi']][[User talk:WiKiAN|'Ki']] 21:39, June 16, 2014 (UTC) :::::As I've repeatedly said in this forum, I don't think it's against the rules. It doesn't hurt the style and it can be quite useful. So from where I sit, you broke your own rules by refusing to wait for an actual policy decision. Of course, I'm not an administrator so I can't do anything about it. :::::I know it was just an analogy. However, it was a very poor analogy that certainly did not have good implications. I was offended by it. Incidentally, I was also offended by your implied threat that you would block me over this issue. By the way, when you removed the Nitpicker's Guide from City of Love, you removed not one but two legitimate errors along with it. I was restoring, not just the Guide, but those errors as well when you threatened to block me. :::::On the actual Nitpicker's Guide instead of what is becoming a personal dispute, I will answer your question. "Why do we need the tag when I, or anyone else for that matter, can accomplish the same effect through the use of a simple message, without breaking any rules?" :::::My answer: because sending someone a message explaining why their edit was wrong is a reactive solution. The Nitpicker's Guide is a preventative solution. In my experience, preventative measures are more effective at lowering crime rates, limiting the spread of disease, and of course bad edits, in this case. And, as I've said several times now, it doesn't compromise the style of the wiki or it's formality. --StefCW (talk) 02:32, June 17, 2014 (UTC) Also, if the messages you've left me are anything to go by, the Nitpicker's Guide is less prone to offending people while still handling the situation.--StefCW (talk) 02:42, June 17, 2014 (UTC) To be honest, I agree with WiKiAN. From what I've seen on the Nitpicker's Guide (on the City of Love page and other places on the wiki) it's not necessary and it seems to break the... flow?(can't thnk of the appropriate word to go here) of the wiki. StefCW, the two errors that were on the City of Love page weren't real errors. "Ma Chérie Je t'aime" is what Phineas would whisper to Isabella because he's talking to a female and Je t'aime rhymes with plane fine... Continuing on, the administrators read and interpret the rules in order to come up with a consensus about what's against the rules and what isn't. Everyone can't look at the rules, interpret them their own way and then act upon them. Otherwise someone could read the MoS and determine that the whole wiki had to be written with a different look (headings, subheadings etc.) because it didn't look professional enough (that's a bad example but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say). WiKiAN was also within his rights to offer a warning to block you if you continued to disruptively edit pages (undoing an edit that an administrator makes because it is against the rules' '''is considered disruptive editing). Finally, I think that both of you have just come to hate one another. I mean, StefCW, you're getting offended by a reasonable enough analogy and WiKiAN your posts seem to becoming more agressive towards StefCW as it continues on. Both of you are finding fault in each other's words that may not have been there when it was typed and I think that you need to take a step back, calm down and let some other people put some opinions into this page to determine whether it should happen or not. Matthebatt (talk) 04:23, June 17, 2014 (UTC) :The last one is one-sided. I hate nobody, except maybe Hitler. I actually like StefCW because he's willing to stand up for what he believes. An admirable trait, unlike somebody I know who handled a similar situation poorly. That's why I see StefCW as a potentially valuable contributor. However, he's standing up for something that conflicts with the law, so I have no choice but to oppose him. It is my job as an admin to point him in the right direction. The perceived hostility is mostly because I didn't expect him to be offended by my words. They are simple things which I would say to anyone. But in this case, I miscalculated. Wrong move and the situation turned for the worse. —— [[User:WiKiAN|'Wi']][[User talk:WiKiAN|'Ki']] 08:12, June 17, 2014 (UTC) @StefCW, you don't need to be an admin to make a change. Admins may have additional editing powers, but they are still under the law. In case you haven't noticed, '''this forum is giving you the opportunity to do something about the law.' "You removed not one but two legitimate errors along with it. I was restoring, not just the Guide, but those errors as well when you threatened to block me". Read the page's history. Specifically, Revision as of 03:56, 13 June 2014. You jumped to a wrong conclusion based on one edit. You not only added a duplicate, but also placed it in the wrong section. Prevention is indeed better than cure. However, your method makes us break two of our rules. It's like cutting off both our feet just to prevent athlete's foot. And why should we care if they get offended? They have to accept their mistakes. We shouldn't mollycoddle them at the cost of our quality. —— [[User:WiKiAN|'Wi']][[User talk:WiKiAN|'Ki']] 08:37, June 17, 2014 (UTC) ::I was referring to the fact that the post you left me was worded in a way that seemed offensive. That you've apologized now forces me to admit that you probably didn't mean to offend, but you could have worded your message a little better. And I still think the murderer analogy was a poor one. ::Back to the Guide. As I've frequently stated, I don't feel that the Guide breaks two of our rules. It doesn't compromise our style nor our neutrality. You've got a different view, that's fine. I'm not going to argue with you anymore. But this is how I see it, and I'm sticking to it unless the forum decides differently. ::On the City of Love issue, if the second of the two errors was a non-error, then fine, we'll keep it removed. Truth be told, I've never been great with the gender uses of the French language. However, the first error (though nitpicky) is technically true. Je t'aime, when properly pronounced, rhymes with the letter M, not with plane. I know enough French to confidently say that. That it was removed anyway, and dismissed as a non-error by another user, merely proves that using the guide is justifiable.--StefCW (talk) 13:19, June 17, 2014 (UTC) :::It proves nothing. The tag will be used to quell people who deem information insignificant; they know it is true but they think it isn't notable. That's their reason for removing info. The situation you have just witnessed isn't like that at all. They aren't dismissing it because they think it isn't notable enough; they're dismissing it because they don't know the facts. Basically, the situation had nothing to do with nitpicking. —— [[User:WiKiAN|'Wi']][[User talk:WiKiAN|'Ki']] 09:18, August 19, 2014 (UTC) Example guides Could someone put in links to a couple of nitpicker's guides that you think are particularly well done? I'd like to get an idea of how they're different from what we already do here. —RRabbit42 (leave a message) 05:26, June 17, 2014 (UTC) : All the uses on this wiki have been removed since this debate started. There are tags like it used on other websites, but I'm not sure where it actually came from (as I've said before, I didn't actually introduce the guide on this wiki). : As an example usage, I'll use the one that started this whole debate in the first place: :* Nitpicker's Guide: Technically, platypuses have venomous ankle barbs, not poisonous ones. : Another one that I'd seen on the page City of Love was like this: :* Nitpicker's Guide: Je t'aime properly rhymes with the letter M, not plane. : That's the guide in a nutshell. Place the tag, state the error. If everyone thinks it's out of place, we won't use it, but I never really thought it was out of place. --StefCW (talk) 12:51, June 17, 2014 (UTC) :: So there's a few instances where we're nitpicking without specifically saying it's nitpicking. I definitely need to look into this, but I know I won't be able to do so until this weekend, and I will need to get the newsletter done first. The next couple of evenings are reserved for working on my house. :: Before I forget, I need to state that when I do look through all this, I look at what is being said, not who is saying what. The old "Just the facts, ma'am" bit. —RRabbit42 (leave a message) 06:01, June 19, 2014 (UTC) ::: After doing a google sweep, I want to point out that the one for City of Love isn't an error. —— [[User:WiKiAN|'Wi']][[User talk:WiKiAN|'Ki']] 06:14, June 19, 2014 (UTC) ::::After living my entire life in a city with a large Francophone population, in a country where learning basic French is mandatory, I'd like to point out that the one for City of Love is an error, just a very nitpicky one. --StefCW (talk) 00:15, June 20, 2014 (UTC) :::::It's not because the person who added it was under the assumption that songs or ballads needed to rhyme. It's obvious that Je t'aime does not rhyme with plane. However, there is no rule saying that songs or ballads need to rhyme. —— [[User:WiKiAN|'Wi']][[User talk:WiKiAN|'Ki']] 02:16, June 20, 2014 (UTC) ::::::True. Songs don't need to rhyme. However, I think the point was that Isabella mispronounced the word to make it rhyme.--StefCW (talk) 00:16, June 21, 2014 (UTC) :::::::If we look at the sentence used, we can see that it requires two things to be an errror: first, is that she mispronounce the word; second, is that there be rule for songs lyrics to rhyme. The sentence only meets the first requirement, therefore, it is not an error. —— [[User:WiKiAN|'Wi']][[User talk:WiKiAN|'Ki']] 09:18, August 19, 2014 (UTC) Hello? Has everyone just forgotten about this page? It's been over a year now. I'd really like for the issue to be resolved.--StefCW (talk) 00:20, September 5, 2015 (UTC) :It's been forgotten, unfortunately. —— [[User:WiKiAN|'Wi']][[User talk:WiKiAN|'Ki']] 19:35, September 5, 2015 (UTC) Also, Wikian is missing the point about the City of Love error. The point isn't if the word rhymes or not. It's about the fact that Isabella mispronounced it.--StefCW (talk) 00:21, September 5, 2015 (UTC) : Nah, man. I think you're the one missing the point. No way I'm letting that slide. I am a petty man, after all. : I believe that I already explained why it cannot be an error in my last reply to you. The very structure of the sentence ("Je t'aime properly rhymes with the letter M, not plane") requires two conditions for it (the sentence) to be a fact: :#''Je t'aime'' is mispronounced by Isabella (which it totally is) :#Songs/ballads must absolutely rhyme :The sentence only covers condition Numero Uno, so the sentence cannot be true. It's correct that the word is mispronounced, but that's only part of what the sentence is saying. It ultimately fails because it also insinuates the whole rhyming thing. That small thing right there is what invalidates the sentence. :The obvious solution here is that someone should take what is true (the fact that Je t'aime is mispronounced) and list it into the page using a different sentence -- like, "Je t'aime is mispronounced" -- without insinuating that ballads must absolutely rhyme. I'd do it myself, but I'm a lazy butt etc etc etc. —— [[User:WiKiAN|'Wi']][[User talk:WiKiAN|'Ki']] 19:35, September 5, 2015 (UTC) ::Then change the way it's worded. You're making a huge deal out of nothing. ::Watch this: (Isabella mispronounced Je t'aime.) ::There. Problem solved. ::Also, I just want to point out that although you are right about ballads not needing to rhyme, every other line in the song does rhyme, which one could argue sets a precedent, especially since it seems pretty obvious that the sole reason the word was mispronounced was to make the lyrics rhyme. This is where the advantage of the Nitpicker's Guide can be found. The mispronunciation was clearly deliberate, but it can still justifiably be called an error because, intentional or not, it was a mispronunciation. Thus, it is a nitpick. --StefCW (talk) 18:28, August 30, 2016 (UTC) :::"Then change the way it's worded." :::That is beyond the point and not my responsibility. You said it yourself -- the base sentence ("Je t'aime properly rhymes with the letter M, not plane") was wrong. That is my concern; nothing more, nothing less. I don't give a mouse's butt about the other parts. So long as that thing is wrong, then I will delete it. :::Funny how you accuse me of arrogance when you can't even see your own condescending behavior. —— [[User:WiKiAN|'Wi']][[User talk:WiKiAN|'Ki']] 04:30, September 14, 2016 (UTC) ::Also, when I conceded that you probably weren't attempting to offend me with your post. Yeah, I've look at your profile. You clearly have no problem with being deliberately offensive. I hereby rescind my concession. --StefCW (talk) 18:37, August 30, 2016 (UTC) :::Whatever madness floats your boat. As it stands, you haven't done a thing for the wiki, so there's no longer any need for me to think that you could become a valuable asset. —— [[User:WiKiAN|'Wi']][[User talk:WiKiAN|'Ki']] 04:30, September 14, 2016 (UTC) Resolution Standard procedure is that we close threads like this after 6 months and as it stands, it's been far longer than that. I will give this topic one last week. If no further discussion happens by that time, then I'm filing this under our resolved issues. —— [[User:WiKiAN|'Wi']][[User talk:WiKiAN|'Ki']] 09:43, March 17, 2018 (UTC) : That sounds fair to me. And I apologize for not marking this forum page as a resolved issue sooner. ~KinHikari ♪ Don't give up on . ♪ 14:28, March 17, 2018 (UTC) :Sounds fair. I honestly don't care anymore. I'm not coming back to this wiki anyway, so I have no investment in the resolution. --StefCW (talk) 23:53, March 23, 2018 (UTC) This forum is now closed. —— [[User:WiKiAN|'Wi']][[User talk:WiKiAN|'Ki']] 04:39, March 25, 2018 (UTC) Should